CARMEN,
ANDERSON, SHARP, HANOVER SHOES, (SON AND FATHER)
ALEX.: The Ole
Pocahontas, Montana, no it was International Shoe Tannery wasn't it at one time?
*: Well, it was United States Leather Company.
ALEX.:
United States Leather.
*: Greenbrier Tannnery.
ALEX.: Yes.
*: That was the original tannery, originally built
about 1903.
ALEX.: Yes.
*: They ran it until 1927, it burned down then
they rebuilt it and they operated from 1928, completed it in
1928, ran it until early 1930 and it was closed 1930 until
about October or November, 1940, when International bought
it. Then it was International Shoe. They ran it from that
time until 1970. They closed it out in May, 1970. It was
known that Marlinton Tannery of International Shoe
Company.
ALEX.: Yes. How many people did it employ say speak
production?
*: International has as many as 225 at one time,
but when we was still
running same amount a hides then we
closed it out. Had in the neighborhood of 140 men in all.
ALEX.: Yes. How many hides, top production?
*: We could run, they crowded us to run 900, we
did run 900. Eight-hundred was our capacity.
ALEX.: But you were running 900. Does most of that
leather go to International Shoe?
*: Yes, they made it for their own use.
ALEX.: I see. What would have been say at the peak
period of 2 employees of 200 people, what would have been
the payroll at that period of time? Can you give me any payroll figures, gross?
*: Aw,
man, you're getting way back down like 30 cents an hour, you know.
ALEX.: Yes. What would have been the payroll in 1970,
when they went out?
*: Around $9,000 a week.
ALEX.: About $9,000 a week.
*: Round, between 9 or 10,000.
ALEX.: What would have been, do you know anything
about gross business, what would have been?
*: No, I don't because all those figures came out.
ALEX.: Was most financial records destroyed in the
fire of '27, in the original tannery?
*: No,
this was the old office building and it didn't burn just the old tannery building was all that
burned. The old United States Leather Company at one time the way I understand it, they owned over 400 tanneries.
They had a tannery in every hollow in this country. I mean in
Pennsylvania, West Virginia and around in there.
ALEX.: Yes.
*: The reason I got my information from where the
old timers, I knew Frank Johnson, he was office manager
here and he worked for United States Leather up in Pennsylvania.
He was born up there and old man Sam Hench, he was there, Hench Superintendent down here.
ALEX.: How do you spell his last name?
*: H-E-N-C-H.
ALEX.: How long was he here at the plant as
superintendent?
*: Oh my, I don't know when Mr. Hench came here.
He was, I was just a little fellow. Now Dad could
probably, he might be able to tell you.
ALEX.: I see.
*: But Mr. Hench was still here when International
took over. In fact, he didn't take over his supervisor
capacity, but he did help with a lot of calling back people
to work, you know.
ALEX.: Yes, sir. Then the tannery went out in 1970.
How long was the property vacant, was it a short period of
time or long?
*: No, we started on it October 12. Hanover Shoe
took it over.
ALEX.: Same year.
*: Same year the International gave the property
to the town. They tried to sell and they couldn't get rid of
it so they gave this whole thing about 50 acres down below
town, plus there is 14 here, and they gave it to the
town. Then the town formed a corporation. Hanover got started here the 12th of October and then they leased just this
part of it here.
ALEX.: I see.
*: Try to start another and we just make parts,
were not making shoes.
ALEX.: Do you get your
leather?
*: Howes a Durbin.
ALEX.: At Durbin.
*: We
buy our own leather, I mean our own hides and they contract to tan it for us.
ALEX.: I see.
*: We buy some other on the outside also, but the
biggest majority of it is being tanned by Howes
Leather.
ALEX.: How many people do you employ at this location?
*: We've got 115 working now.
ALEX.: So you did do so little in terms of numbers.
*: Right now, yeah. We've got another place
downtown.
ALEX.: I saw that.
*: And they're both together. They are just
sewing up for us together what they call "cutting and fitting"
to make a complete shoe. They're just making parts to
help
Franklin.
Franklin has a complete welt.
ALEX.: I see.
*: See
they make the "welt-like" shoe over there and then they have a plant at
White Sulphur-make cement
and stuff. We furnish them with all their sole, well not all
of them, but most of them all of the leather ones.
ALEX.: What would be the gross pay roll over here
presently?
*: It's running pretty close to what it was when
the tannery shut down, right now.
ALEX.: About the same, you talking about 9 to 10,000 a
week.
*: Yeah, of course we're working both men and
women. About 60 percent women and 40 percent men.
ALEX.: Little bit different mix.
*: Yeah, little different set up from what it was.
ALEX.: Do you remember any of the old stories about
the tannery that might be of personal interest in human
interest? Your father might be able to help me in that area.
*: Yeah, I expect Dad could and, of course, Jane
Price down at Times Office could give a lot. She's got all of my pictures. Mr. Hench gave them all to me. He
was like a second grandfather you might say to me.
ALEX.: Yeah.
*: And being with the tannery, he didn't have any
children. He gave everything, pictures of the fire the
next morning smoke coming up, then he took Mary Reed report
back to New
York, that was her head office, as they built it back when they blowed the stake down. This thing came up
and they wanted some pictures. Sent them up to the
university and got them copied, and I haven't got them back
yet.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*: I know she got all these old papers, that's how
I happen to know the exact year it was built. I wasn't
quite sure then until we checked on that how many bricks were
in the old chimney and that kind of thing. I had a lot of
people to say how many bricks was in it. I didn't have
any idea, but that's said with around 250,000. I had no
idea. I've been looking and reading articles and that thing.
ALEX.: Now you mention financial records. You said
they weren't destroyed in the fire. How have those been
preserved or have they?
*: I don't know as far as that goes. I don't know
anything about the old U.S. records, I don't know. They
did keep them paid here from this office, but what they
did with them I don't have any idea at all.
ALEX: Those are always of interest to us.
**: Sure.
ALEX: Because they help to lend credibility.
*: See, it was liquidated, the old U.S.
Leather,
and when they sold everything they had as far as tannery
goes, through these old timers like Mr. Hench and Mr. Johnson
and some of them, they got it in their head they wanted to
control the hide and leather market of the world or in the U.S. at least that's how Swift and Armour got into
tanning hide.
ALEX.: I see.
*: They built their own tanneries just until
recent years. There were Armour tanneries and Swift still has some,
I guess they could call Havenwood, North Carolina, still operates and I think they still control by
Swift. Boy, U.S. leather at one time wanted to get their fingers on hide and leather end of it have it all controlled because there were a lot of tanneries, I tell you.
ALEX.: You went to work here when?
*: 1942.
ALEX.: 1942, were they using any bark at that time?
*: No.
ALEX.: No bark in '42?
*: No.
ALEX.: It was all prior to that time?
*: No,
when your reform being built back in here shows your bark and your hemlock bark sheds weren't here,
but we didn't use any bark at all.
ALEX.: Chestnut, oak?
*: Yeah.
ALEX: Or any oak bark?
*: I think it was most any kind of oak bark. I
know they use chestnut oak, well I guess it was all bark. I
don't know if it was any particular kind, of course, what
we use was cobrancho* from South America. Africa chestnut
comes from France and Italy. Merfan* which makes
okaliptus * at Australia, see we got it from all over the world and blended together. Each one has a different
tanning content and it also has a different coloring content and that's where you change your color at Brando* to red
then Beam Ice Breaker if you want to look it up, it's a real
hard wood. It would bring out the reddish color. Brolo* is also to the red side. Chestnut, you go to the yellow
side and a little more on the acid side.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*: And that's why you can blend them together,
brought them to a point. If the market was calling for something you didn't want to stain, which probably 75 percent
of it was stained anyway, but the natural sole, you know,
is going to be yellow or red. Well, you could do it when
you tan liquor although we didn't change it that much.
ALEX.: I see. Have
there ever been any history kinds of publications made about the operation here?
*: Not to my knowledge, no.
ALEX.: Don't know of any existing other than what you
think from Pocahontas Time this, that, and the other?
*: That would be about the only thing I would know
of at all, what Jane Sharp has it down at the Times
office.
ALEX.: I see. Well, is your dad around or available?
*: I suppose, he lives right down the next corner.
ALEX.: Yes.
*: First street that goes out he lives in the big
white house on the corner.
ALEX.: Let me ask you when were you born?
*: 1921.
ALEX.: You were born in 1921, date.
*: May 28.
ALEX.: May 28, and what's your position here at the
present time?
*: Plant manager.
ALEX.: Plant manager, family's been with it so you
hung right here with it, too.
*: Yeah, I stayed here. That's one reason I
didn't leave. Had my property, shut down. I got the rug
dropped out from under me. I could have gone St. Louis but I didn't particularly want to leave and a pretty good
place to raise a kid.
ALEX.: Good country and good people.
*: Yeah.
End
The Father
ALEX.: You spent pretty much of your lifetime in
tannery.
*: No.
ALEX.: Work in the woods some?
*: Wouldn't work in the woods for nothing.
ALEX.: Is that right?
*: Started out when I was 14 years old.
ALEX.: Well, most of you fellows started young seems
like.
*: Yes, handled an axe very well.
ALEX.: What kind a double bit?
*:
Yes, my dad was a time maker, when I first started we worked for Kendell Lumber
Company, that down this Thorny Creek country. They had their mill up at
Thornwood, but they logged this, you know where Thorny Creek
is?
ALEX.: About Boy Scout Camp, is that Thorny?
*: Yes, that's the head of it. It comes ahead
down the river. There used to be a railroad down there and we
loaded logs on train and C & O hauled them to Thornwood.
That's the way they hauled them out of there.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*: But
they had their own local railroad up in there. My dad and I used to walk from over on the other side of
the river up to the top of that mountain, cross the river up to
the top of that mountain and over there into Thorny Creek
and up some of them hollows. We didn't carry cross cut
saw, we chopped down and scored. You know how you make a
railroad tie.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*:
We'd chopped down, score and hew and chop off at the top end a hundred railroad ties and that's what we
consider a good day's work.
ALEX.: A hundred railroad ties.
*: Then walk back home. I couldn't even walk over
now, but we've did that many a day. We've walked across
that mountain, oh, I expect four miles.
ALEX.: Is that right?
*: Over in there, of course, you didn't make them
like C & O ties. You made them out of chestnut, that kind
of stuff that's just for logging. They didn't have to last only just for a year to two, as long as they had a
three inch face. Well, you take a stick the size of that
light pole over there, well you would get a low four or
five ties out of it, you see.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*: And we would just chop it down and through a
tie box, just a strip box, you know, the size you wanted.
They had to be seven inches thick. As I said, a three inch
face so just throw it down. I had my old file with the end
of it curled up like that and sharpened it. We used it on
the bark to line it off.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*: And we would line those off and I would jump on
that chopping ax and score it into the line and back to the other side. And my dad was one of the best
broad ax men I ever saw, you know, instead of you know how
broad ax you are.
ALEX.: The old broad ax we're talking about.
*: Yeah.
ALEX.: We're not talking
about a five-pound lumberman ax, but we're talking about an old broad ax. Yes sir,
I've got one of those. My father had one.
*:
Broad ax, you know, the handle on them are crooked and instead of putting it in like that for a
right-handed man to hew on the side of a log this way, my dad did it the other
way and he was left handed. He just stepped upon that tie stick like that and just walk back on
there just as fast as walking. Just like a band saw.
ALEX.: Strip it right down.
*: Strip it right down.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
*: In the course of that job, we made over 32,000
railroad ties, so I've done some chopping.
ALEX.: You've done a lot of chopping.
*: Yes, sir.
ALEX.: You say you strip those ties down you get?
*: No, what we did we made those, as I say, we
just hew them and chop them off at the top end, then we would go back later with horses and skid them into the
railroad and cut them and pile them and tie. Tie man come along
and take them off.
ALEX: They bought those logs out there at Thorny
Creek with probably standard gauge.
*: Yes, standard gage, old shay engines.
*: Old shay engines. They used to call me boy
engineer, that some of the engineers on the thing. They get
me on there and let me run those old shays up and down
Thorny Creek.
Did it many a time.
ALEX.: You didn't run them off the track did you?
*: No, we got along fine.
ALEX.: Now you say there
Kendall lumber?
*:
Kendall lumber.
ALEX.: You took most of that lumber up to.
*:
Thornwood up in the head of the country who head of mill but there was a lot of other lumber companies
around. That is where I started to work Kendall Lumber.
ALEX.: You say you were about 14?
*: Yes, sir.
ALEX.: When would that have been?
*: I guess I was 13, because that was in 1914.
ALEX.: 1914.
*: I was just one year behind the calendar. I was
born 1901.
ALEX.: Instead of 1900. Can you remember any of those
old timers up in around there and was there any particular
things that happened in the logging
operation, any difficulties you might have had?
*: Well, a one of engineers on them old shay
engines, they had two of them Peach Spitzer was one of the
engineers on them old shay engines and Russell Dilley was the
other, and they were the ones taught me to drive an old shay
engine.
ALEX.: Well, you went to work in the woods with your
father, I guess.
*: Yeah.
ALEX.: How long did you work on that job?
*: I guess altogether we put in about 2 1/2 years
over there.
ALEX.: I see. Log it out in 2 1/2 years.
*: Yeah, they logged it out. There was a lot of
it that burned. We had a big fire, well, one branch of Thorny Creek was called Marla McRun, big area, all the
prettiest hardwood you ever saw, white oak and everything
and they had it all skidded out and rolled up in
landings ready for the train to pick up. Fire broke out and I
tell you there was ash heaps in there 20 feet deep.
ALEX.: Is that right? Dry, it must have been dry.
*: Oh, it was real dry.
ALEX.: Fire was one of the big events over there, lost
a lot of lumber.
*: Oh, burned up millions of feet.
ALEX.: What year was that?
*: I believe that was 1915.
ALEX.: 1915.
*: Not positive.
ALEX.: Had most of the work done, ready?
*:
Yeah, they had all the logs skidded up and rolled up in these landings beside the railroad.
ALEX.: Had there been some cutting in there before
that. Had some already been taken out?
*: That was virgin timber.
ALEX.: All virgin in
there. Well then, I guess this tannery started up here about 1901, too, didn't it?
*: It lasted turn of the century. Well, the
railroad came in here in 1900-1901 some where along there
ALEX.: Going from that job where did you go?
*: Well, I've worked at several different logging
jobs over the country. I've worked for Wilson Lumber Company at Williams Pikeford
and Stillwell job down here later. But I cut timber at Wise Lumber
Company, Clover Lick. I help cut timber for them in '17 and the early part of
'18 and that is the coldest winter that I ever saw in this
country. After the first of the year, I went over on Elk and
worked for Williams and Pikeford Lumber Company. The temperature
ran from 10 or 12 above in the daytime, 25 to 30 below at night,
and it stayed that way long in December to the last of
February to the first of March. We had pretty tough sledding in
that kind of weather. I remember a buddy and I cut two
enormous trees over there. We cut one poplar that had 5,200 board
feet and 1 red oak that had 5,800 board feet in it. Those
were big trees.
ALEX.: Yes, sir.
They had to be. They measure from the small end, they tell me.
*:
Well, yeah. Of course they were scaled at each log that was cut off that red oak. They had to split it
four ways to get it on a sawmill carriage. We had to
take the handle off of a six-foot saw and use it for each
side. One of us would saw a while and then the other. We was
about three hours getting it down.
ALEX.: Well, you made a lot of board feet, though.
*: Yeah, we made a lot of lumber. I was married
in 1919. Jobs got real scare for a year or two, and I
didn't work anymore in the woods for, well, a couple of
years after that Judge Howard and I rented an old sawmill up on
Elk Mountain, just the two of us, and we run 6,000
feet a day over that sawmill and stacked it.
ALEX.: That is a lot of lumber. Did any other men
work with you?
*: No, just the two of us.
ALEX.: Just the two of you. Someone said it was a
thousand feet per man if you wanted to make any money. You
fellows were doing a little better than that.
*: Of
course, that was back when they had good timber. We didn't saw anything like you see them hauling
through here on the trucks now. They were hard to make
poles.
ALEX.: Well, that was back about the early '20's.
*: Yeah, that was 1921. Then I worked on a day up
here for 2 1/2 years, then I went to work for people storing tobacco.
Worked there for 18 years, then I went to International Shoe Company.
ALEX.: International Shoe, what year then?
*: 1942, and I have a 25 year
.... doing service
for them and I retired in '68.
ALEX.: Can you tell me anything about that tannery?
*: Well, I was here all of the time it was
running. I worked at the store, well it burned in 1927, a year or
two before they built it back. And then again back in 1930, and they had
to shut it down again. That's the old union tannery company, and it didn't run anymore till
1940. Then International Shoe Company bought it. Carmen,
he worked 'til 1941 and it closed down. He's been there
a good time himself. In fact, he was there when I went
there. I took his place in the office when he went in the army he, "I would never make it" I know I never went to
high school. I finished with an eight-grade education. I
worked along. I only stayed 25 years.
ALEX.: Well, I think that's a record in itself.
*: I never had a day of typing.
ALEX.: When did you retire from up there?
*: 1968.
ALEX.: When you do born?
*:
1901 Oct 16th,
this Oct 16th I’ll be 75 years old.
ALEX.:
Well, you still look pretty young.
*: Well thank you.
ALEX.: You've got an awful lot of blue in your eyes.
I wonder if you would mind if I take your photograph?
*: When I was 13 years old, I was coon hunting one
night and we treed what we thought was a coon. I climbed
the tree on it and it was a panther. I didn't argue with him whose tree it
was. I got ready and shot him out. You know, history claims the last panther was killed in
Pocahontas about 1896 or '97, but that was 1913 or '14
along in there.
ALEX.: Well, I guess they roam these ranges much later
than.
*: Oh yes, I've saw panthers since them, a couple
of them.
ALEX.: They travel, I guess they range from Florida to
Canada all the way up.
*: Yeah, all the way through this mountain range.
ALEX.: They had this one over here they found.
Somebody must have released it then.
*: Well, they claimed that one was released but I
don't know. I've seen signs in these mountain all through
the years. It couldn't be anything else but panthers.
ALEX.: It wouldn't take
one long to get lost in some of these Ranges, would it?
*:
Well, no. You could tromp a long time in some of these valleys, I tell you, and I did a lot of turkey
hunting in my time. I never thought anything about going
back in these mountains by myself, usually my dog would go
with me. I'd go back Williams River country and turkey hunt all
day by myself. People wonder are you afraid of getting lost, I
was never afraid of getting lost. I always had a pretty
good idea where I was. This guy out in the country said
he was never lost but he was bothered for three days pretty
bad one time, but he was never lost. I never got that bad.
STOP SIDE1
ALEX.: That's a strange feeling to be lost.
*: I
imagine it would be. Tea Creek Mountain, I went in there one time turkey hunting by myself, had
this dog with me, went up way back and down one side of Tea Creek Mountain.
It was 2 1/2 miles up there I expect, in the bloomet snow storm I ever saw
sounded like a freight train a comin' around a hill. There wasn't much wind
with it, but it seemed more like barometric pressure
knocking limbs off a tree when that hit. It was a real fine wet
snow and you just had to wipe it out of your face like that to
keep from drowning. I got up again behind a big tree and
that old dog stuck his nose up behind my knees and we stood
there for 15 minutes and it snowed over 4 inches. I never
saw such a snow.
ALEX.: A regular blizzard.
*: Well, it wasn't too cold. I figured lasted an
hour a man would never get out of there but when I came
off the mountain to where the car was, it hadn't snowed
two inches down there. It was just like a thunderstorm
came and went and the sun came back out and by the time I come out of there it
was almost gone on the road. But that was the worst storm I was ever in. I believe if a man
hadn't had something to protect him he would have drowned.
ALEX.: That's something. Tell me about this descendant. Who is this?
*: General William C. Sharp. You read that in
history. He was a general under Washington during the
revolution and he settled at Huntersville. He was one of the
first settlers west of Allegheny and you've heard history
where Washington said, "Give him a thousand men from hills to
West Augusta, he would run redcoats out of North America."
That was my granddaddy's outfit. He was talking about Virginia Riflemen, of course. This was all called West
Augusta back in those days. He was given a land grant for his service during the revolution, ran top of Allegheny
clear over to the side of Slaty Fork, top of middle
Mountain. I don't know how many thousands of acres are in it.
ALEX.: They have that land grant? Did anybody locate
that land grant? Some of these land grants are still in
the family?
*: Some of these around here have some old deeds
that came off of that originally. They was called old Galligher Survey in the first place but I don't know who.
ALEX.: Well, that's quite interesting.